(6.06) 97 Ways to Get What You Want.

There's a fairly persuasive myth about power: that once you have enough of it, everything else follows. This episode makes a decent case against that, using nothing more dramatic than a chief executive who can restructure an entire division and still can't get their own kid to tidy their room. If you've ever wondered why some very senior people still don't get listened to, or why some people with almost nothing get listened to constantly, this one's for you.

Join KG and Paul as they chat to Jen Overbeck about why having power and having influence turn out to be two genuinely different things.

As usual episode's wine comes from our friends, Annandale Cellars, and it's the 2025 Schmölzer & Brown Beechworth Merlot, a straight varietal from Tessa Brown and Jeremy Schmölzer's high-altitude vineyard. It pours a deep, dark garnet and opens with blackberry, cinnamon and dark fruit on the nose. On the palate it's fruity and balanced, with fine tannins, good body for a Merlot, and a bit of cherry and spice that lingers.

Get at least half a dozen of these (or half a dozen of any of Annandale Cellars' amazing wines) and get a 20% discount by using our code at checkout: DECANTED

Sláinte friends! Great to see you again!!

Useful resources from this episode:

1. Jen Overbeck's website: jenoverbeck.com
2. Jen Overbeck on LinkedIn
3. Pathways to Politics for Women, the non-partisan political leadership program where Jen volunteers
4. Melbourne School of Business

Please feel free to send us your thoughts, comments and suggestions any time by leaving us a text/voice message via the link at the top of these show notes!

Or talk to us through either of the options below.

Email: askus@leadershipdecanted.com 

Website episode comments: www.leadershipdecanted.com

Disagree or agree with anything we've said? How wrong are we?!? Are there any leadership topics you'd like us to discuss, or people you'd like us to talk to? Maybe you'd like to recommend a favourite wine!

Whatever tickles your fancy, we'd love to hear from you!!

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

People will often reach for power.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

If it's the water they're swimming in, they may not notice it.

SPEAKER_05 0:05

Everything there can kill you.

SPEAKER_04 0:09

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Welcome to Leadership Decandid, where we engage with the latest thinking on all things leadership, and we keep the conversation going over a nice bottle of wine.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

AG. Oh what is happening, man? We are on the move. We are. We are on the move. So do we keep it a mystery or do we tell them where we are?

SPEAKER_00 0:45

What do you think? Well, you know, it's a it's one of our favorite places.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

It is.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

So you know, we are well, may as well.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yeah, because that gives it away. You just tell them right then. You know, you didn't. We've been here before. We have.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Think think four seasons in one day. Think coffee culture alleyways with lots of lice sort of uh graffiti or art, you know, street art.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

So if you haven't guessed yet, Melbourne. I was gonna say Alice Springs, but yeah, sure. Same same, same same. Same same. We're in Melbourne in our. I was gonna say annual pilgrimage, but I can't remember if we were here last year.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Maybe last year, or the 18 months or something. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

And we're here because uh there are some amazing people that we want to talk to, share some wine with, have a conversation, get to hang out, get to hang out, get to hang out. So here we are. And by the way, and I think it was the same last time we were here. The weather has been great. Oh, I know it really perplexes people. I know, I know. Maybe we just bring the good weather.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Maybe that's maybe not, but that's okay because it is fantastic weather here. Yeah, uh, love it. Uh, great time of year for those of you who are overseas, come this time of year, which is that uh I'll call it fall going into winter. Oh, it's beautiful in Australia and beautiful in Melbourne.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

That's right. Now, I don't want to pull you up on this, but you do know we say autumn here.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Oh, I gave it away.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Just a little pedantic note, that's all.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

But you know, I was talking to the overseas people, so let's Okay, okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Okay, yeah, you're a tourism guide. Yes, fair enough. Uh it may sound like we're already drinking, uh, but we haven't. No, not truthfully, we haven't. But we are looking forward to it. And I know that you especially are looking forward to the first glass.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

One of those days, man, I need it. But I I won't sound like it is because of the day. Okay, it's because I get to hang with you, hang with our special guest, and we get to share a glass of wine together, which is what I've been really looking forward to.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Great. Well, we do have, as usual, a great bottle of wine.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Uh, we assume it's great.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah, I'm kind of I'm just taking it as given now. I'm just saying, as usual, as if it were the case. Yes, fair. We don't know anything about this wine. I've just looked it up because I really didn't know anything about the wine.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

But it looks great.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

And look, if you are like me who don't know much about wine, if you walk into this bottle shop, Andale Cellars, by the way, just say Andale Cellars, you'll get the same treatment, right? You don't need to know wine, you don't need to know what you're looking for. They're so good at finding that perfect drop for the occasion or for whatever you need. So, like you said, we haven't um had a bad one yet, so it's been great.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Not yet. I'm looking forward to that day. I'm not sure how we're gonna do that. You're looking forward to the day that they they get it. It's a challenge. It's a challenge. I got you. So um, but and look, and today's bottle, I do know that it's from Beachworth. Okay. In Victoria, I thought Victoria, we're in Victoria. Makes sense. You see? See what I did there?

SPEAKER_02 4:05

I see what you did. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

It is also the wine area of two of my most favorite wineries. Okay, Castagna and Jaconda.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Both make amazing wines, high altitude, yeah, and fairly high altitude for this particular one as well. So looking forward to seeing what it does. I am excited. So, what we have is a 2025 Merlot from Vigniron's Schmalt. Oh, geez, it's a it's I think it's a German name.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, you gotta read this one.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, Schmaltzer and Brown. Okay, okay. Schmaltzer and Brown. Now I believe this is a couple, a married couple. There's uh Jeremy Schmaltzer, if I believe it correctly, and Tessa Brown.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

And Tessa, yeah, I like the name Tessa.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah. So it's a Merlot, as I mentioned, Beechworth, high altitude. Okay. They don't make it all the time. So I think they they pull the grapes from elsewhere, but only when only when they're good enough. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

So you may have to explain this to me. So with that, does that mean that they would like have three months out of the year that they would make this particular variety and then if if it's if it's not happening, they just don't do it?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Or good question. I think it might have to do with the quality of the vintage. Okay. So if the grapes look like they're at the quality that they want, whether it be ripeness, sugar levels, whatever it might be, then they'll pick them or they'll choose them and then they'll make the wine. If for whatever reason it hasn't quite worked well that year, due to you know whether weather or other force mesure, then they probably would make it.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

I'm excited because that means they're discerning, right? They they've got some.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

It's a it's a nice frame.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Very well frame. They they want to make sure it's good before they give it to us.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

So yeah, let's let's so it's it's a straight up Merlot, not a blend. So the last couple of episodes we've had blends. Yeah, yeah. This was a straight varietal. Okay. Uh I don't know what to expect, to tell you the truth. I would assume fruit-driven, yeah, uh, but maybe a bit more fine. It's also high altitude, so maybe we'd get uh a little bit more constrained flavours. Okay, okay. I don't know. Maybe fine tannins. This is all speculation, shall we? Let's see what they've got. All right, okay, Stilvin. Removes the performance anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Ah, yes. That was a gentle opening. It's it's still good, still good. Uh I I like the ease of a stelver.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I'm going to pour now.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Nice and dark. Good colour.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Okay, now this is a deep, deep garnet sort of red colour.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

There's no see-through for this one, no.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

No, no, it's quite quite dark. Well, very raspberry. Yes. Very raspberry. Fruity for sure. Yeah. What else are you saying? What else are you smelling, KG?

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Red? Red?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

I thought you were gonna say that. You're becoming you're becoming predictable. I know, I know. They can just push play. We should uh just open up to our guests before introducing them. Guess what what are you what are you getting on the nose?

SPEAKER_05 7:26

Yeah, I feel like I've got blackberry and cinnamon.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Oh cinnamon now. Darker fruit. Dark fruit, yeah. Just a touch. Nice, nice and spicy. Yes. All right.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Well, that's a taste.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah. Wow. That is really nice. All right, very fine tannins, so you can just feel some texture without it drying your mouth. And there's uh that's it's nice fruit. I think it'll just open up in the glass as we talk.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

As we go, but um really, really smooth. Yeah, just that little bit of tannin in the back.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

A bit of cherry, actually. Get a bit of cherry. Yeah, I'm looking for the spice. Certainly spice on the nose. Yeah. Love it. Well, once again, Alendale sellers, thank you so much. Another winner. Another winner. Folks, if you want to get yourself either a schmaltzer and brown merlot or anything else that is this place has a very extensive collection, go to asellers.com.au. Yes. It's a-c-e-l-l-ar s dot com dot AU. Now, we may be in Melbourne, we may be anywhere in Victoria, doesn't matter. They will deliver. Yes. And if you choose six or more bottles, which why wouldn't you really? I mean, why would you waste your time shopping for anything less than six? Yes, yes. So don't waste your time, but make best use of our promotion code or our discount code. Yes. Which is Decanted. All right. Would you like to spell that for our lovely? Oh.

unknown 8:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

The clue is in our name. Yes. So when you get to check out, put in the promo code Decanted. Yes. And you will get an overall discount of 20%.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

20%. Not 10%. Not 5%. Not good enough. 20%. 20. 20%. And that's just for being friends of the show. It's for being friends of the show. And again, six is it it's not going to be that much because when you look at the variety that they have, the selection that they have, you will want at least six.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Get a bit of everything.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

But certainly try a Schmaltzer and Brown Merlot 2025. I can recommend it. Really nice. Yes, yes. Very, very balanced, good body. Even for a Merlot. Nice. Very good. Salauncha. Salauncha. As we imbibe of this wonderful, wonderful Fruit of the Gods, KG.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

We have with us a wonderful guest. We met online a little while ago. Oh, yeah. I was really interested in the work they were doing in the leadership space. But rather than us introducing, I will just mention their name. Ooh, okay. And then we'll ask them to introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

We'll do the the formal introduction. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

I would like to introduce you and our listeners to Jen Oberbeck.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

Jen, Jen, Jen. Yes. Thank you for having me. Oh no, no, oh no.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Fans quite calm down. Don't get out of control. That's right. Jen, lovely to have you here. So good to be here. Yeah, thank you for um joining us. Would you like to introduce yourselves? What is the Jen Oberbeck story?

SPEAKER_05 10:40

Yeah, well, many stories, like most people. There are many stories in the Windy City and in my life. Yes. I live in the Melbourne area. I live in Bendigo, a little bit north of Melbourne. So for those overseas people, I live in what's called regional Victoria, which is kind of small town Victoria, after living for nine years in Melbourne, to where I moved from, you're probably guessing from the accent, not somewhere else in Australia, from the US. And I moved here because I am a professor of management. You know, it's kind of natural for people to move to different institutions at some point in their career. And I got a call from a colleague saying we're looking for a new faculty member at Melbourne Business School. Would you be interested in coming to Australia? And I went home and told my husband, and he said, There is no way we are moving to Australia. Everything there can kill you. Okay. And I grew up watching a crocodile hunter. And he said, Do you know every suburban backyard is full of brown snakes? So uh we had a bit of a negotiation around that, and the school ended up bringing both of us out for my interview because I told them he was going to be the harder sell than I was. And, you know, Australia sold itself. It was a great place to be. We really enjoyed the food, the community, the wine, of course. And um, and then I've been here ever since.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Wow. I I am curious, what was the the final sort of penny that dropped for your husband?

SPEAKER_05 12:10

I think it was, first of all, we were living in Utah at the time that we came out from the for the interview, and it was February. So in Utah, it was the middle of winter, and it was one of the coldest winters in year. So for six weeks straight, the temperature never got above five degrees ever. And sorry, negative five degrees. I'm not even adjusting properly. It was really cold. And so we landed. First we went to Sydney, which was beautiful and balmy and warm. And then we came to Melbourne, which was fairly balmy and warm as well.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:45

Uh, we're walking around the CBD, we went to the Botanic Gardens, people were having picnics and walking their dogs, and it just looked like this lovely quality of life. It seemed very, I don't know, peaceful, and people were being nice to each other. And it was like, oh, this is this is really something.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

People being nice to each other was a contrast.

SPEAKER_05 13:10

Interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

And there was no brown snakes to be found.

SPEAKER_05 13:12

And there were no brown snakes. And you know what? We've lived here for 12 years now, and I think we've seen two or three snakes total. And generally it's like, you know, way on the other side of the highway or down a bridge really far away. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Oh, good. So everyone's been safe. Everyone's been had a terrible, dangerous escape from.

SPEAKER_05 13:31

I mean, I woke up in the middle of the night with uh with a giant spider on my face one time, and that was a little confronting, but that would be that was fine. I I reached up because something tickled and I felt this thing and just flung it away. And then when I turned the light on, I saw a very large spider sitting over there.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:48

Um, but it didn't bite me.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

That would be confronting. Yeah, that would be confronting. We won't use that in the uh sales campaign to bring people to Australia. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 13:58

It was a very it was a very atypical experience. And I will say, when I lived in the US, I lived in Colorado, I lived in Utah, I would go hiking and see bears, right? So a spider versus a bear. I mean, it depends on your phobia, but for me that's a pretty easy trade.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah, yeah, that's right. You can outrun a spider usually. Yeah, yeah, typically. Yeah. Yeah. And so what type of work did you get invited to do at at the Melbourne School of Business? Yeah. Was it Melbourne Business School?

SPEAKER_05 14:25

Melbourne Business School, yeah. So in the US, I was also a professor of management and I've studied power, influence, negotiation. Those are the key areas of focus for me. And they have a they have a really strong program here in negotiation, but not a whole lot of people to teach it. So there was uh more demand than they can meet. And I think they really wanted someone to help with that. But it was uh it's a really good place, Australia, to be talking about things like power and status and influence. You know, it's a tall poppy country, and yet those things still matter. Um there's a pretense that everything's very egalitarian and we're all very equal. And yet those dynamics, of course, in any society they pop up. And so there's a lot of conversation to be had, both in terms of how people interact with each other politically, societally, but obviously in organizations and with leadership too.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Right. And what's the big biggest contrast you've noticed between that common, or should I say, wisdom in inverted commas of being egalitarian and how power plays out in the sort of work that you do or the the things that you teach?

SPEAKER_05 15:31

That's a really good question. I mean, I think we have an idea of egalitarianism, but there are there are deeply ingrained assumptions that we have about what makes somebody more valuable than another person, more talented than another person, um, more important than another person. And I think it's funny because I feel like both in my research and in other people's research, there's this pattern where in fact, the more egalitarian and equal we try to be, if we have a very flat organization, or if we try to act like everybody's on exactly the same playing field, then in fact, sometimes paradoxically, you get more sharp elbows, more competition, more uh if I want to get ahead, if I want to uh advance, then I need to stand out. And so I need to crowd out the people around me. Whereas when there's a hierarchy, I think people can kind of relax into that hierarchy.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Yeah, it's evident. So you say, yeah, that's fine, that person's doing that. But if it's not, then you say, huh, maybe I should be able to do it. Yeah, maybe I should be.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

So there's something about the structures that we sit in in whether it's corporate life or other organizations, is it the structures that tend to create the conditions for whether it's egalitarianism or that sharp elbow?

SPEAKER_05 16:47

Yeah, I mean, I so there's a difference, I think, between society and organizations. Um, so I'll just talk about organizations now.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Because there is a you feel there's a difference.

SPEAKER_05 16:58

Well, I think so, because I think that I think in society we have the the sort of egalitarian ethos because of history, because of this is a bit of a tangent, but I've heard this really interesting tidbit, and I have not been able to track down who originally said it. But it was the United States was formed out of revolution, and the people of the United States, as a result, or the majority of the people in the United States, don't trust their government, which is a sort of a passed-down echo of a revolutionary mindset. Whereas in Australia, the country was founded in a convict culture, and the Australian government doesn't trust its people, which is a bit of a hand down of that dynamic. And um, it's a simplistic comparison, but I do think that this notion of how the country was founded, that it's it doesn't have a long history. People were brought here or came here. Sorry, I am misspeaking because it has an extremely long history of tens of thousands of years, and I I want to make sure that I acknowledge and appreciate that history. So I'm talking about the settler history, obviously. But you know, relatively recent and and all kinds of groups came in, and there's this idea that all right, here we are, and and we're very equal, and people should pull together and nobody should be above other people. I just think that's different from what happens in a company where there's a decision made about whether to be flat or whether to be hierarchical, yeah, based on some kind of theory of how do people work the best, how can we motivate them? What's the best control system, coordination system?

SPEAKER_02 18:37

And that's likely to change on a regular basis, right? Because that's the way organizations are, right? You can say, Oh, I've got a new leader and I want to change that and I want to have it be more flat. And then another one comes and they say, Oh, no, no, I didn't like that. Uh it worked better for me at another organization this way, and it should be in hierarchy. So it's different in an organization than I think society, because yeah, we don't change that much, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

I'm struck by two things actually. The possibility that, and I'm curious about this, whether whether it's the societal understanding of egalitarianism or however that expression of egalitarianism shows up in an organization, they're both driven by certain mythologies.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

And so we call sometimes we call them theory if we want to elevate them. But it's the side of the mythology, right? The mythology, the mythology around, you know, the the distrust, or or even the mythology around the age of the population in this land, yeah, or the mythology of the homogenous colonial settlers. Yes. Yeah, that's true. But I'm not quite sure what the mythology is in the corporate, but they're you know, I'm sure it won't take very long to think of them. So they're driven by certain mythologies, but they don't always seem to be evident or I think you mentioned earlier um about the assumptions that we're making, but they seem to be under the surface. And so we our corporate life seems to roll along in a particular way with these mythological assumptions that are never tested. Yeah. And then sometimes, to your point, those sharp elbows tend to maybe they they pierce through the narrative or or something. Well, how would you explain what I'm trying to say?

SPEAKER_04 20:21

Well, no.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Good luck. Good luck.

SPEAKER_05 20:25

Thank you, thank you. Let me have a little more wonderful. I might do the same actually. No, I I think you're spot on, and I I think it relates to um what you were saying too about people can come in and change things. Like, yeah, so mythology, assumption, theory, I think those are all kind of different words for the same thing. And I think the key is that these are typically so deeply held that we'd have trouble articulating them, unless you're an academic or a podcaster who likes to surface and identify these things. Yeah, right. But I think most people walk around with them and they just, they just it's, you know, it's like the air that we breathe. You don't see it, you don't notice it.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:04

Um, it's just how you think the world works. I think in an organization, one of the things that's that's possible that's not possible in society is that one person walks in and can have the power to say, you know what? I think everybody works better hierarchically. I will put in a home.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

And they haven't they have the kind of authority, the positional authority to make that that call. That's right. So what of the school, um I know that we're still in that society v uh organization conversation, but I'm uh I just want to touch on something else. What what of that assumption, perhaps, or school of thought that organizations um just another expression of a larger societal norm or set of norms? Now, each expression might be different, but do you ascribe to that position that in a sense it's like um you know those uh those really weird maybe they were in the 70s? Those lamps, those table lamps, that seemed to be little fibers, like hundreds or thousands of fibers that were coming out would come out of the middle. Yeah, and so there was kind of this main sort of light that would emanate, but it would really kind of, you could see each fibre would show a little. And sometimes if you got the luxury version of that lamp, each fibre might be a different colour, but it would still be emanating from the same light source. How's that from a metaphor?

SPEAKER_05 22:36

Talking about next TikTok trend, I think.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

I'm sure of it.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I'm sure of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

So I'm just I guess I'm pulling out for that metaphor as it doesn't make sense to suggest that the organizations that populate our culture are simply certain types of expressions of the broader societal norm.

SPEAKER_05 22:57

I mean, it it makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:59

Um but then I'm sort of I'm sort of stopped by just how diverse the elements of culture are. So, like, yeah, there are infinite numbers of expressions of a culture and different aspects of the culture. So I do think it's possible. But you you were reminding me of something that um I've been working on with a colleague of mine at Melbourne Uni for a few years, and he's an expert on uh international culture, theories of culture, and he works in a specific, specific theoretical perspective that says that it's not that we can say, you know, um Australians are different from Chinese are different from Americans, are different from French in these particular ways, right? That typing culture is reductive, just like typing people is reductive. And so this tradition is called cultural logics. Are you familiar with this? Have you heard of this before?

SPEAKER_00 23:51

No, the only work that I'm familiar with across culture would be a bit more popularist, I think, Trompenas or Aaron Myers.

SPEAKER_05 23:59

Uh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Aaron Myers is great. But the cultural logics perspective says that we can tend to have a kind of dominant logic about what makes a good human being and what is the way that human beings should interact with others in the world. And so there's a dignity logic that says you're a good human being if you live up to your ideals for yourself. So if you're doing what you think you should be doing in the world, that's great. You know, it's sort of the Whitney Houston, no matter what they take from me, they can't take away my dignity.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

It's like, oh wow, that's that. Are we gonna get a few bars?

SPEAKER_05 24:32

No, you just did. Um, and then there's face logic, which is there are hierarchies. I have my place in the hierarchy, and I might be at the very bottom of the hierarchy, but if I'm doing that bottom spot as well as it can possibly be done, then I am a good, valuable, worthy human being. And so it's really just about fulfilling your role, fulfilling your obligations to others. That's what that's what makes people good, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

So how does that square with, and I'm not familiar with your work, but I'm not interested. How does that square with your work on power? Because with the way that you've just outlined it, it feels like we're not addressing certain power structures, that the assumption that if I do the work or if I fulfill my role that has been ascribed to me, yeah, then I am I'm dignified or I'm worthy, or but it doesn't really, it doesn't seem to address other structural powers or other structural forces.

SPEAKER_05 25:30

Yeah, yeah. Well, that could just be because I haven't described uh it fully. Let me tell you about the third one and then I'll answer your question. The third one is honor logic, and honor logic basically says my worth, my value as a human being is changeable. So I can have it one day and I can lose it the next day. And it's contested, meaning people want to take it away from me. Use the power. That's yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, and and it's the idea that I need to be strong, I need to be able to protect my family, myself, my close people. I need to have integrity, like those things are really important. And if I don't have those things, and that could mean somebody challenges me and I can't defend, then I don't have worth as a human being. Like I've lost my honor, and therefore I've lost everything that's important.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

And what were the logics again? Honor logic?

SPEAKER_05 26:25

Dignity was the first one dignity and honor and faith. And faith.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

And do these logics in these frameworks do they exist simultaneously? Do they inter intermingle or interrelate?

SPEAKER_05 26:38

Well, yeah. So this is where this is the reason I brought it up when you talked about, you know, the fan light in society, is we can see areas of the world where certain logics dominate. Like in East Asia, you tend to see face logic dominating. In Western Europe, you tend to see dignity logic dominating. In the Mediterranean, um, Africa, Middle East, Southern United States, you tend to see honor logic dominating. So there are these tendencies, but every culture has people in it that have all of those logics. And I think both businesses and even industries can have very different logics. So you might look at the police, you might look at the military, and you'll see more honor logic. You might look at healthcare and you see more face logic. You might look at consulting or law and you see more dignity logic. And so, so anyway, that was a very long answer, really, to come back around to. I do think that the organizational forms sort of mimic what we see in society and they sort of capture this range. That is really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Yeah, those sets of logics are interesting.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Yeah, so it's not so separate, right? It felt immediately like there were two different things. You know, one is society and one is this organizational um structure that can dominate, but really it kind of fans out from society in some way. And and they borrow from other societies, I'm sure. And you know, you can have different people and different ways that people influence that. That's right, but it it still has a connection in some way.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah, I mean, there are a couple of flaws to my wonderfully colourful metaphor, uh never. No, no, no, no. The first one being that it assumes one source of light. One source of light. It's homogeneity, one source of light. I don't believe that. If you were to create a lamp that was perhaps a bit more accurate, it would just be a thousand strands together. No discernible source of light, but somehow they all light up.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Started from everywhere, came together and went out again.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

But the other thing too, I think I think that each source of light, it's not that this is my position, I think, and I haven't thought that through, but it's not that organizations are simply channels of societal norms or cultural norms, but there's a feedback loop. Yeah, right. There's a feedback loop. So it has to go in both directions simultaneously so that one feeds off the other or one supports the other, or whatever it might be. And that's the other flaw in my in my metaphor. That's okay. That's okay. I forgive you.

SPEAKER_05 29:09

Yeah, I don't know what you too. I think I think you've got it.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

So there's an electrical engineer out there with a creativity uh sort of bone. Yes. If you want to create this thing, yes, the new thing. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 29:22

3D printer. Yeah, yes, it can happen. It can happen.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

If we can turn back to your work, because I think it's it sounds really interesting. What is capturing your attention at the moment?

SPEAKER_05 29:32

So at the moment, I'm really interested in the ways that people try to influence other people because influencing is the behavior that turns a power system from people's ideas about power into whatever that culture looks like. And so, you know, you might think about people have different ideas about how power works. This is not my research, this is somebody else's. But some people think that power inherently means that you, you know, sort of have to be strong and tough and coercive and, you know, take no prisoners. And even in the workplace, it means a very hard-charging, I mean, dare I say, a sort of uh modern-day Trump idea of how power is exercised in the world. And then there are other people who believe that power is most effective when it's collaborative, when we bring people on the journey, when we inspire them. And obviously, you know, most leadership, scholarship, practitioner advice consultants for decades have said that that second view is the way you ought to be. But there's still debate. There's still debate even in the even in the scholarly literature about whether that more benevolent sort of collaborative approach to leadership produces better results or not, right? So, but in any case, it feels different to be in those two different kinds of environments. And it's because whatever ideas people bring into the environment, then they express those ideas through behavior. And so the way I choose to get you to do something in the workplace is going to reflect probably a more collaborative approach to power or a more coercive approach to power. So I'm gonna give you choice and say, here are the things I want you to do. And maybe I have some power that means ultimately I could compel you to do it, but I'm gonna explain to you why and lay it out and let you make that choice versus do this or I'm gonna fire you. Do this if you want to be one of us, you know, that sort of thing. And there's been lots and lots of research on influence tactics, but surprisingly, there has not been a stream of research in the academic literature on influencing that connects those two things, that connects people's kind of philosophy and approach to power with the actual behaviors that they use in an organization. And so I'm working with a few graduate students and honor students to try to map out what are the different behaviors we can use, how much power versus choice underlie those tactics. And then what does it look like in a context where maybe I'm trying to persuade you? You're showing me some resistance. Do I understand the range of behaviors that are available to me? Or if I'm going by instinct, am I drawn to either try to be really nice and then get frustrated and get really coercive? Like there's a whole bunch of questions in this space that we're trying to ask. Wow. It's a big space.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

So it seems, and I think you've alluded to this, it's not a simple binary by what you're saying. Yeah. It's not just coercion or consultation. There is a whole bunch of things in between, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 32:34

Yeah. I mean, to be a little bit clearer, what we think is that influence tactics reflect two distinct intersecting dimensions. There's a what we depict as a horizontal dimension when we draw it, which is the amount of choice that you offer to the other party and whether they agree with what you're asking them to do. And then we depict a vertical dimension, which is how much power you apply. So, how much do you use your control of resources to try to compel them to do the thing that you want? And so you can arrange tactics in this two-dimensional space. So some things like ask you politely, will you please do what I want you to do, is very high in that persuasive influence and very low in power. Something like threaten to fire you is the opposite. But you have all of these things in the middle, which include things like explain or advise how to do something, give the rationale, complement the person's expertise and match the tasks to their expertise. And so the idea is to let people who need to influence others understand the full map of what's available to them as opposed to I tried being nice and then I had to get tough. And it's like, no, no, it's much more than those two extremes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

It's a lot in between.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Yeah. And is there a third dimension? I guess what I'm thinking is so you have how much choice do you give, how much pressure or power do you exert? Yeah. Is there a third dimension that talks to or at least highlights how much access to power I have? So for example, if I'm the CEO, then my vertical access is going to be very long. Yeah. But if I'm just the core center schlub, yeah, middle manager, anybody else. I may not have access to that much power. Is that is that a thing?

SPEAKER_05 34:15

Well, we don't use that as a separate dimension. We we sort of say, look, you know, you're still on the power dimensions. It's the same dimension, but you're onto something really important, I think. And we've only started to really be able to identify patterns from data. But people will often reach for power because they want to get something done. They'll reach for power they don't have. So they'll make a threat they can't carry out. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Or they'll no authority to carry out.

SPEAKER_05 34:42

Yeah, they'll present themselves in a way that they can't back up. And sometimes, like one of the high power tactics is borrowing power from other people. So like you try to say, the boss says you have to do this. Well, maybe I didn't ask the boss, and maybe the boss actually doesn't think you have to do this. I'm just making it up. And so it sounds better. Yes. And so it's, you know, it's kind of interesting because if you fake it and you get away with it, that probably does increase the amount of power that you have the next time because people believed you. They obeyed you. And so now you've kind of established this obedience pattern and that gives you some power. But if you try to use it and you don't really have the power to back it up, oh, that's going to hurt you, right? In the future. Because now, well, the boss didn't back you up, you weren't able to fire me, you know, weren't actually as physically powerful as you tried to pretend that you were. And so no.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Whatever power you would have had has diminished.

SPEAKER_05 35:38

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

And is there anything that swings as far as the type of result you're looking for? And the reason I say that is because I can imagine that both can be effective, just depending on you know who you're dealing with. But on the same token, both can be effective depending on what you're trying to get out of it. Because if you want to get things done right now, there's probably a lot of asking pleas, asking nicely, giving people choice that's okay, but you may not get the outcome in the time that you need or with the financial results that you need. And that that maybe swing you to have to do the other. Whereas if you've got lots of time, if you've got lots of leeway as far as what you're expecting the result to be, maybe it's you're expecting people to just um get along. And as long as we have a group who's getting along um together, then we're okay. And so you do a lot of the please and thank you and just doing that. Is there anything like that in this dimension, or or does it matter, or am I just making no, no, it's a great, it's a great observation.

SPEAKER_05 36:49

It's a great observation. So much in there. I think I have three things to say. We'll see if I remember them all. The first one is that to be an effective leader, it seems clear that a leader needs to have that full repertoire. Yeah, you need to have access to both ends, right? You need to be able to bring people on the journey and give them choice and build support and all that sort of thing. But there are these moments when you just need people to get things done and you have to have the confidence and the ability to use power.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Yeah, yeah, whenever you need it.

SPEAKER_05 37:18

When you need it, exactly. And it's, I think there's judgment and discernment in when to use it, clearly, that can distinguish better leaders from worse leaders. But I do think to be effective, a leader should not limit themselves to only one part of that range of tactics. They should be ready and able to use the whole range of tactics. But the second thing has just flown out of my head. With that, go to the go to number three.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

It's the wine.

SPEAKER_05 37:48

I'm having a sip. I think it was about matching, like matching what you need to the task.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 37:54

Yes, I do remember one of them. It was, I work fairly often with organizations that have a really nice culture. And it can be very tricky because there's such an imperative to be nice that it's seen as violating a really important aspect of who we are as an organization, to just ask people to do something. If you pull it, if you just do this now. Just do it now. Exactly. Exactly. And it's like really once in a while, can we not just say, I need you to do this without spending 20 extra minutes on making you feel good about it, right?

SPEAKER_04 38:30

That's yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:31

So I mean, I think that is spot on that we see these kinds of cultural effects. And it's important that people be able to work again, like I said, across the range and not just in one register. But then that brings me to the third thing, which is a lot of times we do see that leaders, especially the higher they get, the more attentional demands, the less time, the more pressure. They have to occasionally go up here. Yeah. And then it can become a habit because, oh, that worked. It's like I have enough power now that people will do what I want them to do. And I can bark an order and somebody will jump and do it. And they can, I think, forget how that requires a foundation under it. And it requires the legitimacy and the credibility so that I might be jumping to obey your order this time. But if you want me to do it next time, if you want me to be committed, if you want me to carry on when you're not looking and monitoring me, then all of those other things need to be there too. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

You have to kind of win that credit so that people do it even if they're not barked at.

SPEAKER_05 39:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Otherwise, it's only when you're barked at, and then after that, nobody cares. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 39:42

Yeah. Oh, and you did you mentioned one thing that I think is really good. Um, there is a professor at Yale named Victor Vroom, who I think might still be there. And I think he's like 90, maybe at this point. But he's done this amazing work around participation versus unilateral decision making. He has a whole framework for when should you have participation, when should you delegate, when should you make the decision yourself. And he distinguishes between time-driven and development-driven situations. So if it's development-driven, give your people the opportunity to make the decision. But if it's time driven, then a lot higher probability you end up making the decision by yourself. So context clearly has a lot to do with what's the what's the optimal approach, right? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

I'd like to go back to that notion of access to power. What I'm getting from what you're saying, Jen, is that an effective leader has a series of moves available to them. And maybe they're on the more on the collaborative side, maybe they're more on the sort of authoritarian side. They have to have that available. Yeah. How does your work on influence fit in that work? Because once again, if somebody doesn't have that breadth of registers available, they only have a little narrow thing that they can do. Is that where influencing really shines? Or do you mean something else when you think of influencing?

SPEAKER_05 41:06

Yeah, I think I mean something slightly different. So influencing is the actual behaviors you engage in. But if you propose that there's like a leader who has just a very, very narrow band of what they're able to do, what that says to me is that they must not have much power or influence. Because if we think about a two-dimensional space of tactics, then the more capacity to influence people by choice that you have, the more tactics become available. Like if you are an incredibly charismatic, effective, high status, credible person, then you will have the whole range of tactics available to you that require choice as a lever of behavior. At least the low power ones. And then if you have power, so let's say you're the CEO and you control the budgets, you control the spaces, you control the IP, the relationships, people's work, and you're the CEO. So you're kind of the keeper of the vision, right? So you have all these sources of power, that means all of the tactics from the bottom level of power all the way up to those requiring the most power become available to you. So the only way in which somebody genuinely only has access to a narrow slice of tactics is if they don't have very much power or very much influencing capacity. And so the advice that I always give people when they're kind of struggling with that is to simply think about, first of all, can you audit the power that you have? Are there sources of power that you might not be recognizing in yourself that you could tap into? And people are often overlooking important sources of power. And are there things about the relationship that you have with others that would cause them to accept your influence willingly? Can you bolster that? And I will say that that voluntary influence dimension, like that's a long game that takes a long time to develop those relationships. So people are happy to follow you. Power, if you've got the resources, you can use it like that immediately. So I think the other thing that I hear in your question is that people may perceive that they have only a small band of tactics available because those are the only ones that they've thought about or the only ones they've practiced using. But I would argue that they have many. We've identified 97 influence tactics by looking at all the past literature on how people influence and sort of aggregating lists of tactics and trying to figure out if we boil these down to ones that have key things in common, then we come up with 97. So if you're high power and high credibility, you've got 97 different things you can do.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

I must not be very agreeable. I can't think of 97 things.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Or you're not giving yourself enough credit. Yeah. The the power audit you mentioned is an interesting concept.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

What sort of things have you noticed that people overlook?

SPEAKER_05 44:00

This is really good. So one of the things that I do each year is I volunteer to teach a political leadership unit in a program called Pathways to Politics, which is for women who want to run for office in Australia. Oh, nice. Yeah, it's really interesting. I meet lots of interesting people. It's completely nonpartisans. It's just anybody. Yeah. And at any level, you might be running for a council seat, you might be running for federal parliament. We talk about the power resources that are available to you when you're a candidate. And most, particularly younger and inexperienced women come in feeling at a great disadvantage because they don't have a lot of money and they don't see where the money comes from. And they think that that's the only source of power that's going to matter, especially in politics, because you know that's what we always hear about.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

And that's kind of the end result, right? Yeah. You see that people have raised a lot of money and that's how they have gotten to the next stage, right? But maybe that's not the case, right?

SPEAKER_05 44:54

Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's it's a true signal, but it obscures that there it's not the only kind of power, and it's not necessarily even the strongest kind of power. So most of the women who were in this program got there because they were involved in some kind of community organizing, community activity, doing something in their neighborhood, doing something, talking to their council.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:17

And that led them to want to pursue office. And so I talked to them about that activity, and they're spending a lot of time, they're recruiting people to write letters, they're recruiting people to show up at meetings, like they're they're getting human beings to go out and spend their precious time and energy on something that matters to them. And that's what I call human capital. They're able to deploy their own time and energy, other people's time and energy, and to throw that at a problem. And in fact, and you can think about this in organizations. There are a lot of instances all of us have had in an organization where we want one thing and somebody else wants the opposite. And we're both kind of lobbying and trying to talk to people and trying to keep the issue going so that it goes our way. But a lot of time, you know, we reach a point where we're like, you know what? I have a job to do. I have other things. I have a family, I have a wife. Yeah. Like, whatever. I'm not gonna keep, yeah, I'm not gonna keep fighting this battle. And it's the person who hangs in there who wins. And that is human capital. So the ability and the willingness to throw your time and energy at something, I think is actually the strongest form of power that exists. But people rarely give themselves credit for it or they rarely see it as a real asset that they might be able to bring to a situation.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

And how do people, maybe the people on your course, how might they start with the audit? What would be the steps they take? How do they because if it's if it's the water they're swimming in, they may not notice it. Yeah. So how do they do that? Because it sounds like a really useful exercise.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

It's so useful, yeah. And I generally recommend that people sit down once a year and do this. And in fact, think about different relationships that might be important to you in the coming year and do the audit separately for each of those relationships because power is always different in every relationship. There are I've sort of alluded to it, but there are six kinds of capital that we talk about as the resources you can control to have power, financial, which is pretty obvious, material, which is controlling stuff or spaces. And um, I think you're both parents. I the clearest example I have of this is when you have young kids and you control the iPad. Like that's material capital. Yeah, exactly. Or the extreme comp. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Achieving you controlled it successfully, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:33

Well, we talked about that.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 47:36

Yeah. All bets are off once they can hold on to it. Yeah, yeah. There is social capital, which is control of relationships and access to people. There's intellectual capital, which is your expertise and the information that you control. There is human, which I've just narrated. And then there's psychological, which um is about understanding what makes people tick.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:00

And in particular, there's kind of a dark face to this in the sense that it could be the ability to manipulate how people feel. If you can control how people feel, you can get them to do things they would not otherwise do, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Oh, that's the dark side of the force. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 48:16

Or Adam Grant has an article in The Atlantic called the Dark Side of Emotional Intelligence. So it's it's exactly that.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

It's understanding and using it to your advantage and not other people's necessarily. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 48:27

So for the audit, there's two methods that I have advised people to use. And it really just depends on how kind of abstract or concrete you want to be. The abstract version is just sit down with those six kinds of capital and walk through what do I have? What do I have that maybe I haven't given myself credit for or might not be using? Do I control a budget? Do I sign paychecks? Do I control the keys to this space? You know, what things do I control that the other party needs or depends on me for, right? And it's a good idea to also keep in mind what they have that I need and then look at that balance. So that's that's one kind of audit. And I call it abstract because you just really have to pull out, you know, where where do I have these six different things? But a more concrete one that sometimes can help people get into this exercise if they don't immediately connect to it, is to think of one person who you've been trying to influence about something and you've had some trouble moving the needle. And then you just write down the six things, the six kinds of capital, and then underline two that you've tried to use with them, because almost always you can identify something that you've tried. Like I've um made the argument over and over and over, so that's human capital, or I've tried to flatter them and butter them up so that's psychological capital. And then think about all right, well, what's another kind of capital that you haven't used that might be available to you? And so I think people have an easier time once they tick a couple of them off, thinking about what they might have that they haven't given themselves credit for when they're picking from a smaller list and they're trying to think, huh, what would it look like with this person if I use this capital?

SPEAKER_00 50:02

And I imagine that if you can, if you want to get a bit more sophisticated with that exercise, you think about how different capitals might work together. Yeah. How you might amplify something by combining certain things.

SPEAKER_05 50:13

And there are there are definitely some things like offering a reward to somebody or offering some kind of a benefit to them out of an outcome. Well, there could be a financial element to that. There could be stuff involved in that. It can involve praise, it can involve access to something they want to learn that you can help them learn, or you know, intelligence about what's happening next month, and you can let them in on the secret. So, yeah, you can combine lots of those things. You're hitting on something important that I think um we're talking a lot about with executives. Whenever I present on these influence tactics, one of the things I show is we have graphs that show how much both power and influencing credibility you have to have, you have to be carrying with you if you want to use a given tactic successfully. And it's usually much more than anybody expects. Like to share information, you know, make a PowerPoint presentation, and this is what we should do. For that to get 50% of people on board, you have to have substantial power and substantial influence and credibility. And so that takes people aback. But A, you can combine, you can do multiple things, B, you can use multiple forms of capital. And C, one of the things I always recommend is think about like what's something that appeals to emotion? What is something that appeals to the relationship? What's something that is inspiring? And can you put those things together and not just like usually we have a channel that we like to stay on. Maybe it's the rational persuasion channel. So make the business case. But if it's not landing, then maybe I need to think about telling a story that makes everybody go, oh my God, I don't, you know, I definitely want to be on the right side of that.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

So you're looking at maybe dipping into some Aristotelian rhetoric. Certainly. Like the logos, the ethos and logos, the pathos, and there's a thing. Ethos. Ethos. That's right. Yeah. That feels kind of full in that respect.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

That's right. That's right. You don't stay on just one, you need to sort of realize that whenever you're persuading, even though it's business, you're dealing with human beings. And people like, I think sometimes to pretend that they can bring only part of themselves to a business interaction, but the rest of it's always there. Yeah. You know, it's sort of lurking in the background, voice in our ear, influencing what we agree to and what we refuse. And so let's work with that.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

And I think if people really look at their full self and their rounded life, they use those other tactics in home life or in other parts, but they just never thought to use it in their business life sometimes. So it's just bringing it out, letting them know that they're available to them. And then they go, Oh, yeah, okay. I kind of get how that works. Let me see if I can use that over here. So yeah, brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 52:59

One of the things it brings up for me too is a lot of times when I talk to people about using power, if it's not a way that they're accustomed to thinking of themselves, they have concerns about being authentic. Like, okay, that's very nice, but that's not me. So when you talk about it, this is my range, right here. That's authentically me. And I just think it's important to remember that we are, we contain multitudes, right? We're we're diverse within ourselves. There's so many different aspects of who we are. I was at lunch today with somebody who was saying, somebody last week accused me of showing up in one context, one way. And they said, Well, but you're usually this other way. What were you doing acting like that? Why weren't you authentic? And she's like, No, no. That's me too. Yes. Like questions of ideas.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

That's great. How does the influencing power, I guess, framework that you're talking about how does that work with I guess what I'm going to call distance? Let me explain. The distance between myself and my line manager is very short.

SPEAKER_04 54:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Distance between myself and my CEO might is a bit longer. The distance between myself and the Prime Minister of Australia and that cohort is extensive. But each one has a desire to influence something somewhere. Yeah. And they want me included in that, in that influence, usually. What's the difference there? Is there a difference? Is there a qualitative or some form of difference? Do you lose influence the longer the distance, or other ways do you have to boost something so that it can get you all the way there? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

Get that influence or that power to to transcend these layers and come to that layer.

SPEAKER_05 54:41

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I this is a new question. I rarely get new questions. So thanks. And I don't know specific research about it. So I'm going to speculate.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

But I I think We're all about speculation to be.

SPEAKER_04 54:55

Oh, yay.

SPEAKER_05 54:56

My people. Um I think that what you're what you're going to be dealing with in all of those situations is still, do you have the credibility for people to have a reason to listen to you? And distance between us and the prime minister may be very large. But the prime minister, it depends potentially on things like your political party, what you think of his policies, what you think of him as a person. But just on average, because of the office that he holds and the weight of that office, I think he probably has a certain amount of credibility. Like there's a built-in reason to listen to the prime minister. And I'm I might be violating your answer or your question here to say if the prime minister picked up the phone and called one of us, like I think immediately we would be like, I'm taking that call. I was in a meeting, but really, Anthony Albanese is on the phone to me right now. I'm going to go take that call. So I think even with this enormous distance, if there's enough credibility, you're going to see successful capacity to influence. And somebody can be right next to you. And if you don't respect them or you don't respond to the strengths that they bring to that interaction, or if you see them as other in some really critical way, then you probably won't listen to them, right? And so one of the dimensions of influence and credibility that I emphasize a lot in my teaching and training is the notion of this is an idea called idiosyncrasy credits, which I don't know if you've heard of. This is an uh a concept from the 1950s. But it basically says that we listen to and are willing to let ourselves be persuaded by people we consider in our tribe. And the notion of our tribe is really flexible. Lots and lots and lots of different tribes. And even if somebody cannot technically be literally in our tribe, I always talk about the auntie principle, which is, you know, the older woman who's part of the family, but she's not related by blood. Yeah. Like you can still be in the tribe even if you're not of the tribe, right? As long as you support its values and you are seen as congenial to its interests. So and that's the first screen that people apply. I don't think it's so much, are you close to me or you far from me? It's are you one of us in a way that matters to me? And if you are, I'll listen to you. And if you're not, then I don't listen to you. And this can be very problematic in human life. I think that tribal instinct is extremely destructive at times. But if people understand its power and influence, then you know, you find a way, you find the thing that you have in common with somebody, you find the connection. And so that's why politicians, I think, are always trying to, in a sometimes very artificial way, show how they're just one of us and they're, you know, they're the same as you and me.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Humanizing sort of narrative that is often the case. Yeah. Particularly on the uh campaign trail. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because they're usually not human, but um there is something that's uh niggling, but when we've talked so far about power and influence, it feels to me, and I could be misreading it, but it seems to me that the power, the influence, the characteristics, the virtues, whatever you might call them, rest with an individual. So it's that whatever the individual has available to them that they then make a move, pulling from whatever whatever access they have. Is that correct? Is it an individual characteristic that we're talking about? Because then it speaks to leadership as potentially kind of heroic leadership or individual leadership or somehow atomized.

SPEAKER_05 58:31

Am I understanding this or it's actually such a good question and it's such a good thing to raise because I think it's easy to talk about it as characteristics of individuals. And I'm in that habit right now because I'm usually talking to people who want to know how do I influence more effectively. So I'm trying to tell them here are the things under your control that you can do.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

That you can do.

SPEAKER_05 58:53

Yeah. And so power generally is those are resources you hold. So that in here is in the individual, it travels with you as an individual. But all of that other credibility stuff, that's somebody else's judgment. Like you don't control that at all. That lives in the relationship, and other people grant it to you rather than your being able to carry it from situation to situation. So when I'm advising people, I'm trying to help them see ways in which basically they can build relationships. So when I say somebody needs to see you as of their tribe to accept your influence, well, so that means have a relationship with them, you know, be able to build a relationship. And so, no, I don't think that that's something that you just carry from situation to situation. I don't think it's completely within the person or under their control. There's a huge part of influencing that is the choice of the person being influenced. And so I think it's inherently social.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

Right. Because I'm still trying to get my head around this notion of we carry power, if that's what you're saying, we carry power, yeah, but we don't carry influence.

unknown 59:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, basically. Okay. So you must be defining power in a very specific way.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:04

Yeah. So that I'm defining, and and by the way, there's also something confusing in the word influence that is an unfortunate inheritance of academic words. So let me explain. When I'm using the vocabulary, power is the control of resources that other people need.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:20

Right. And when you control those resources, you can use that to impose your will on other people. Oh, okay. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

So that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:29

Right. And now ultimately people always have a choice, but it's just they might be having to endure enormous pain to exercise that choice. And it's really unrealistic, unreasonable to ask them to make that choice. So so I carry it with me because I have my control of resources. And if you value the resources, like if they matter to you, then I can use those resources as power. Still a relationship element, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Yeah, so yeah. So there is almost an inherent contradiction, perhaps, maybe not that, but whereby yes, you carry power, but you can't really exercise it unless there are other conditions.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:03

Yeah, well, unless there's dependency.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:05

Yeah, so there's there is an additional part of this equation that makes power not absolute. Not absolute, but also manifest. Yeah. You can't manifest it if you don't have these other things.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Yeah, think about a CEO, for example, in corporate life, they're extremely powerful, right? But I see CEOs walking up, picking up dog shit, right? Because that's that's their day-to-day, right? They don't have any influence. Nobody's gonna jump and do it for them.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:32

Or they go home and they ask their children, clean up your room, and they say and they just kind of walk away, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:38

Because they don't have that same power everywhere. That's true. It is situational. You can so as a contextual element.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

It has to be it has to be recognized and it has to be that position in their society or their little pocket of I don't know what to call it. But so we all have little elements of that that we can carry. Because as a parent, yeah, I have different, would never have called it power until now, but um, but uh don't have necessarily that power everywhere I go. And most people will, you know, I can't tell anybody to go clean up the room.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:13

Yeah. That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:15

So yeah, it is it so it does make it a different way. It does, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:19

One of my favorite examples from earlier in my career when I was a junior faculty member, and I've always worked in a tenure-based system where you know, you get to a certain level of your career, you get tenure, and now you have job security. And when you're a junior faculty member in the US, that's like the be-all and end all. That's like all you're working for is to get tenure. And I remember reading an example of this definition of power and how it depends on dependency. If you're a junior faculty member, you are under the power of your senior colleagues. But if you don't care about tenure, like if you if that just has no value to you, they suddenly lose all their power over you.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Right? Whatever they say, you don't care.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:57

If I don't want what you're selling, then it just doesn't hold have any hold over me. Yeah. Yeah. And then the influence piece, the one thing I will say, because I said I would try to reduce the ambiguity in these terms, influence is used two ways. So one is the act of influencing, and I try to use that as a verb. And there are two bases of influence. So you can carry out influencing if you have power, but you can also carry out influencing if you can get people to go along willingly. And just because it's convenient, because most people think of the words this way, I typically use the word influence for that. So it's like you've got influencing, which is driven by both power and influence. And I know it's confusing. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:38

That's okay, but but it helps to try and unpack that because I would have thought, maybe as a lay person, that that second level of influence is also a form of power, is also a form of exercising, whether it's personal power or power over you, or power over a situation, or power over an outcome. But it could just be a question of semantics or definition.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:04

I I think in part it is, but I would also say one of the big drivers of your credibility for influencing, so that influence dimension is status. And we also do know that when you have a great deal of status, it tends to come with power. So even if you did not have power to start with, just the fact that you have status, people tend to give you power. And it might be things like that psychological capital, the social capital, the human capital, but you end up having resources that you control that other people depend on as a function of just having had status. So it's it's not just semantic, I think it's substantial.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

Okay, because once again, I think you're pointing to the social dimension of that where you mentioned people give you this. Yeah. Yeah. Status just doesn't grow organically as you get older. For whatever reason, people would give you some status over time.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:53

Yeah. There is a whole theoretical area in sociology that says that there's something called status characteristics. And being older is a status characteristic. Being male is a status characteristic. Being white is a status characteristic. And so if you're an older white male and you walk into a room, you're probably going to enjoy a sort of an automatic status response.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

There's a default baseline already.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:19

Yeah. Yeah. That other people don't get the automatic response.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

Yeah, yeah. That's an interesting thing. Yeah. And it does depend on context, because right, when some an older person walks onto a bus, everybody gets up and stands, you know, gets out of the way. It's politeness, but it's also, you know, like, hey, you know, give this person some respect, kind of, you know, at least in our society.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:40

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

I could keep talking for a long time, Den, so uh I'm checking myself. Likewise. Uh it's it's really, I really enjoy this notion of because I think at the moment what you've helped me do is just slightly dislodged, maybe some pre expression. existing notions of power and influence, which I I enjoy the dislodging, but of course that means I now have to ask a lot of questions to help me understand the integration. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:13

So what you're saying is there's going to be a part two. That's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

There might be a part two now if you're not for it. But yeah, because I'm interested, you know, I have my background kind of more in the continental philosophy space. So so I haven't asked you the question because I think it might be alienating both either to you or to our listeners particularly Foucault's notions of power, for example, and how how you might engage with those ideas. But we won't go there.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:36

I was going to say I didn't know another drink before we do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:39

I will say I did I did write a book chapter in 2010 where I tried to look across because you know psychologists we can get very narrow in our definitions of things. And so I looked across philosophy, political philosophy, sociology, anthropology and and did engage with Foucault and a lot of the um sort of postmodern views of power and it's super interesting stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

Yeah. Does it create a little anomalies for the work you do or is it not something that you worry too much or engage need to engage with to work.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:09

No, I mean I think um so first of all I I publish in areas and I tend to talk to people in a way that I'm kind of just sticking with my frame of reference. But if I do branch out to that frame of reference, I think that that conversation can be had because the notion of again I do have a very specific perspective but the notion of there being an element of consent and an element of coercion. So one thing that's missing from that sort of two-dimensional space is the notion of kind of controlling the decision space or controlling what's even on the agenda, controlling what even gets talked about. But that I think still lives in in the power dimension that if you you know if you keep us from even being aware of considerations or topics of conversation then that's that's one of the power resources that you were able to bring to bear. So I I think they're reconcilable right yeah right okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Now just to wrap up I'm keen to get your insight if we were talking to say leaders of teams not necessarily super senior but just any leader of a team or anyone who has leadership responsibilities over a team whether it be a private sector or not for profit or government what are some of the things that would help them or benefit them to think about their own power and influence? What would be some of the things that you think just reflect on these couple of things that might give you some insight about how to improve your outcomes or your relationships or your influence. What might one or two things be?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:43

Well I think in light of what we've been talking about one of the things that I would recommend is really pay attention for maybe a week or so to what specific behaviors you're using to try to influence people and pay attention to how much are you staying in this kind of nice space of just asking them or maybe even just hinting. I worked with a group of professional services partners last week and across the entire business when I would ask people what are you doing to influence the most common response was well I just kind of hint around that I'd like them to do it. Okay. Is that it? Yeah, yeah yeah yeah and then I get really frustrated that they're not doing it. So pay attention maybe you're doing that a lot maybe you're making the business case a lot maybe you're actually sort of barking orders at people or being a bit abrupt a lot. And there's so many questions you could unpack. But I think the most important one is do all of your tactics kind of live in a similar space? Do they all feel similar? And what happens when you run into resistance because we all run into resistance. A second piece of advice that I would give people is to anticipate that you're going to meet resistance at least four times before you break through to some tentative willingness to maybe do what you say. I think people will go into an interaction thinking I'll present this case and everybody will see how brilliant it is. They get kind of a no and they don't quite know what to do. So they try again exactly the same way or another nice thing they get a no again and that's where they don't know what to do next and do get frustrated and then jump to maybe a much more abrupt or coercive approach to influencing. So if you slow down and you really notice what that pattern is, then you can choose a more and we've talked about some of the approaches you can use and the different like emotion and relationship channels and different kinds of power resources that might underlie a tactic that you use just thinking about what am I doing right now? Am I two one note? Do I have a repertoire? And if I don't maybe what's one or two things I could add so that next time I get a no, I have in mind already, oh, let me try this other thing that might be a strategy that would help.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:03

Now if people have other questions or they're keen to engage with your work where could they find you or where would you like them to find you well having a wine is offered so uh I can be reached at my email j.overbeck at mbs.edu and I do have a website jenoverbeck.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:24

Right we'll put those in the show notes. Yeah perfect great been fantastic thank you jen so much for this conversation and I really enjoyed it it was really I've learned I'm taking notes or at least we've got it recorded so I can get a transcript that's right absolutely thanks again KG thank you thank you thank you for being part of this traveling show yeah yeah it's been lovely thank you so much that's it for our show today if you liked what you heard if you liked our conversation if you want to hear more please rate us review us subscribe tell your friends your family your enemies everyone you know as always we'd like to hear your feedback about any particular leadership topic you'd like to hear about or want us to explore please let us know by reaching out to us at askus at leadershipdecante.com that's askus at leadershipdecante.com. You can also leave your comments and suggestions at our website at leadershiptocanted.com We really appreciate your time and comments. Thanks for listening and come back next time