Leadership Decanted
Curious about leaders, leading teams, or leadership? So are Paul Garcia and Kerry "KG" Butler. In fact, they turned their periodic happy hour chats about life and leadership into the Leadership Decanted Podcast. Join Paul and KG as they discuss all things leadership. Each episode of Leadership Decanted asks fascinating questions about leadership and keeps the conversation flowing over a nice bottle of wine.
Leadership Decanted
(6.04) A Kaleidoscope, Not a Recipe: Systemic Leadership in Polycrisis
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Something has seemed fairly obvious in the field of leadership development for a while now: the gap between what people learn and what they're able to apply when they return to their organisations. It shows up as disillusionment, stalled change efforts, and the recurring question of why things that seem so clear in a programme setting become so resistant in practice. It's a gap Liz Skelton has been sitting with, and working on, for over two decades.
Join KG and Paul as they chat to Liz about systemic leadership, polycrisis, and the conditions that either allow or prevent new ways of working to take hold. Liz is a leadership practitioner, co-author of Lost Conversations, and PhD candidate at the ANU School of Cybernetics, and her work sits at the intersection of adaptive leadership, systems change, and the question of what it actually takes to shift entrenched dynamics.
As always, the conversation is 'facilitated' by our friends at Annandale Cellars. On this episode we very much enjoy the 2024 Mastroberardino Mastro Bianco, a white blend from Campania in southern Italy, made by a historic family winery known for preserving ancient indigenous grape varieties. On the palate it's beautifully rounded and textured, with tropical notes of white peach and melon giving way to clean citrus and a freshness that keeps it from tipping into anything overtly fruit-driven.
Paul also detected banana. The official tasting notes did not. We encourage you to weigh in.
Get at least half a dozen of these (or half a dozen of any of Annandale Cellars' amazing wines) and get a 20% discount by using our discount code at checkout: DECANTED
Sláinte friends! Great to see you again!!
Useful resources from this episode
- Liz Skelton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/liz-skelton-3160834/
- The Adaptive Practice: https://www.theadaptivepractice.com.au
- ANU School of Cybernetics: https://cybernetics.anu.edu.au
- Lost Conversations, book.
If you are interested in a written reflection of this discussion and its themes, you can find our brief article here.
Please feel free to send us your thoughts, comments and suggestions any time by leaving us a text/voice message via the link at the top of these show notes!
Or talk to us through either of the options below.
Email: askus@leadershipdecanted.com
Website episode comments: www.leadershipdecanted.com
Disagree or agree with anything we've said? How wrong are we?!? Are there any leadership topics you'd like us to discuss, or people you'd like us to talk to? Maybe you'd like to recommend a favourite wine!
Whatever tickles your fancy, we'd love to hear from you!!
How do we create a world that's better than we found it?
SPEAKER_01It gives them something that they can grab onto. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Specifically, for a working hypothesis. Welcome to Leadership Decandid, where we engage with the latest thinking on all things leadership, and we keep the conversation going over a nice bottle of wine. Oh, here we are again, man. Here we are, here we are. And this time around, a little different.
SPEAKER_01A little bit. I mean, you know, some things are relatively the same, has that familiar feel. We're back in our podcave, you know, where we hang out, back where we belong, I think.
SPEAKER_02We'd be like say, it has started a little bit, I don't know if it's stressful, is the word, but yeah, we've had some technical issues. Yeah. Because we haven't done this for a little while, this form of episode.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Well, we have a special, special guest. We do. And they are remote. And we are in the same room. You and I are. It just kind of someone's got to drink the wine. That's right. You know? So we have to make that happen. That is part of the it was in my contract. It's right.
SPEAKER_02I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. It was it wasn't even the fine print. It was the only print. That's right. So wine, please. It's right, exactly. So, you know, we figured this guest is special enough that we need to bend over backwards and make sure we get them on this episode. Yes, on this podcast. You will love this guest.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Listeners? No pressure, of course. No, no, no pressure. But you know, I'm I'm gonna say also that as usual, along with the special, special guests, we have special wines. We certainly do. You know, we will start off there and and see where the day takes us. But what is the wine for the day?
SPEAKER_02Well, as usual, it's a wine that is totally unknown to me. Yes. And yet I have such faith in our friends at in Annandale Cellars. Yes, they will make it uh make it right, I can tell you. Exactly. So what we have today is a white wine, it's a mastro bianco campagna.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep going.
SPEAKER_02And yes, the winery is mastro berardino. Mastro berardino.
SPEAKER_01Now, I am just gonna say it, and I know other people are thinking it, that the way you say it makes it sound good, right? I want that wine already, you know, just with the accent, and it just sounds like wow, that that's okay.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much. Well, funny you should say use the word exotic. These this is actually an exotic wine. Why is it so? I shall tell you. I shall tell you. I've done a whole 20 seconds worth of research. I can tell you exactly why this is exotic. Was it GPT or Claude? No, no. No, it wasn't. It was actually, it was actually, I went straight to the source. I went to the Alendale Seller's website. Oh, as oh, that is great. Segway. I love it. A-C-E-L-L-A-R-S.com.au. Yes. Great notes there for this particular wine. Of course, I'd crossed my fingers, I wasn't sure if there was going to be much information, but there is so the Masra Beraldino, yes, the winery, is a historic family around winery in Campania. So that's where uh Naples is. So I think Naples is the capital of that region of Campania. And they're credited with preserving, this is really important, preserving indigenous ancient grape varieties. Wow. And so these grapes, which I had barely ever heard of, in fact, I've only heard of one. No, two. This is a blend of four grapes. Okay. Another blend. Another blend. We're hidden blends. Yes. This one has four, two of which I've never heard of.
SPEAKER_01Overachiever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So the first grape is coda di volpe. Don't know anything about it.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Next grape is phalangina, which I know, and as a varietal, it's a wonderful fresh grape wine. Yeah. There's fiano, which is becoming much more known here in Australia, particularly in the in Adelaide Hills. Okay. They make fiano. Yeah. And then Greco, another grape I know nothing about. Wow. Wow. So these are quite ancient grapes. Okay. This winery, Mastro Berardino, that creates the Bianco Campania, is known for that. And what do we expect from this as a flavor profile? Well, because we have two blind spots, I don't know. That's a good point. That's a good point. So let me turn, let me turn to our good friends and I'll tell us. They will tell you. Yeah. They suggest I see if I read this, then it's going to what's the word I'm thinking of? The the power of suggestion?
SPEAKER_01Yes. So I'm not going to read it. Don't read it because then you'll ask me what it tastes like. And I'll go exactly what they said. What?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02Let's not do that. Let's not do that. Um I've just resisted reading it. So what I will do though, yes, is open it.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And then we will see what the blessings are like. See what the profile and then let's compare it against what's on the bottle.
SPEAKER_02Now we normally we normally share this with our guests. Yes. And we ask our guests, what do you think of the wine? Yes. Unfortunately, this lovely guest isn't in the room. Are you drinking anything, lovely guest?
SPEAKER_00Well, I've got wine envy because I've got a nice cup of tea here at the moment. So you please enjoy on my behalf. I'm there with you though. You've you've given me a great lead into it. So I'm with you.
SPEAKER_02And hopefully we can have you back on so that we can share some wine with you. Would love that. That would be wonderful. Lovely. It's a cool KG.
SPEAKER_01Ooh, this is this is the challenge. I'm gonna tell you guests that this is where um you know we we do a little bit of sweating, especially Paul, because he does the actual open. And hopefully all goes well.
SPEAKER_02Are we ready? There you go.
SPEAKER_01Oh, perfect pop. Very nice. I'm I'm gonna capture that one for a sound effect because that was perfect. That was real effects. All very um practical effects here. But I'm you know, I'm thinking commercially I could sell it, you know, as a sound effect. Do people do that much?
SPEAKER_02Uh they do, and then there are probably a middle cork opening cork, popping corks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're ruining my my my bath. Sorry, thank you.
SPEAKER_00The anticipation's killing me now. So us too.
SPEAKER_01I will show. Oh, I've got the oh, beautiful color. Nice, nice. Almost a very pale straw, I would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, definitely it looks light if I if I can say that. Sometimes you you can see it and it's got more legs, and you can see that it's looks heavier. This one looks really light. What can you smell? White.
SPEAKER_02No, okay. It's there is a bit of tropical notes.
SPEAKER_01Maybe some white peach or yeah. Uh let me kind of stop you there because yes, and listeners, all has already read the notes.
SPEAKER_02No, I haven't read I haven't read the tasting notes. You haven't had okay. I only read I only read the um the bit about the winery. You stopped, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's I won't tell it a white. They're gonna cheat on us, okay. Telling little fits. Yeah, fair enough. Keep me honest. I understand this. But no, I haven't read the uh tasting notes, so we don't know. But I'm getting a little bit of white peach or tropical things like um melon or something.
SPEAKER_01Uh definitely uh a tropics kind of smell. Yeah, and it feels summery already. You can have it any time of year. I know that. And yeah, you know, I'm sure whoever's listening, whatever time of year, it's gonna be great. But it's gonna sound weird. I'm getting banana. I did not get that, but that's okay. That's I'm getting it on the palate. Okay, that's really nice. Yeah, it is very rounded, textured. Feels your whole mouth, you can kind of feel it. It's got some body, some texture, it's got some depth. That is delicious.
SPEAKER_00I think I need to go and get myself a glass of something now. You're just a cup of tea isn't cutting it, I'm afraid.
SPEAKER_02This um it's beautiful and textured, like you said. It's got a beautiful mouthfeel, it does cover your mouth. Some citrus, it's nice balance. It balances with a tropical, so it's not a coinly sort of fruity wine.
SPEAKER_01No, no, it's quite balanced. And you and you know, I'm anti-sweet, and it's not, so that's great. It's just kind of that a nice balance. You've got a little bit of just the flavor that carries it through, but not gonna be sweet for you. So it's very nice.
SPEAKER_02So, folks, this is a mastro berardino mastro bianco campagna 2024.
SPEAKER_01Wow. And I'm just gonna be curious, what do the show notes say or the uh the tasting notes? Okay, and then we've got to go find what should it taste like, okay.
SPEAKER_02Aroma, uh no, that's not it. Yes, here it is. It says the wine offers a pale straw hue. Mmm, check it out. You are on it. Yeah, okay. I think I'll stop there. Fruit-driven profile. Aromas of fresh flowers, didn't get the flowers. No, no, pineapple, didn't get that. Peach, you got peach, yeah, yeah. And citrus, leading to a clean, refreshing palette. Yeah, we've got that crisp acidity, flavors of lemon, quince, didn't get the quince, and stone and stone fruit, which we've got the stone fruit.
SPEAKER_01Doesn't say anything about banana. No, no banana pole. That's all right. That's okay. You've just got an extra sophisticated palette, you get, you know, you get the very kind.
SPEAKER_02You're very kind. So it's a challenge to our listeners. Yes. Go to Anandale Cellars, A-C-E-L-L-A-RS.com.au, buy yourself a bottle of the Mastro Bianco Campania 2024. Yeah, or six. Or six. And tell us, tell us, do you get banana? Yeah. Do you get banana when you taste this? Because I do, and it's not in a bad way.
SPEAKER_01No, no. It's in a very nice way. And and you may be asking, why do you know what you do? So there is a special thing that you get. If you buy at least six, you get a 20% discount. And not just because you bought six. No. If you use the discount code of decanted, you get 20% off. So um either walk in, tell them that you know us, or order on the code.
SPEAKER_02So the secret word, decanted. Just go in and say decanted and immediately you'll get a 20% discount. That's it. Sorry, Chris, if that's not true. It's now it is now. We're gonna manifest this. We're gonna manifest this. So check out if you've got six or more bottles, 20% discount is yours by adding the word decanted into your discount code. Yeah. Simple as that. Very nice. In the meantime, we're gonna enjoy this. Yes, Italian wine. Actually, a sluncher. This sluncher would be something.
SPEAKER_00Sluncher's even more appropriate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, that's our that's our um our tag for when we we don't say cheers, we say sluncher. And I don't know why we do that. I don't know. We've but we've been doing it from the beginning. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Oh have you? I thought it was just for me.
SPEAKER_02No, no, well, it just happens to be fit for purpose right now. So this is the first time it's probably culturally appropriate. Yes. Are we ready, KG? We are ready. Okay. Now that our whistles are wetted.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and we are excited and ready to enjoy more conversation. I think that's what is happening. That's what it's about.
SPEAKER_02I'd love to introduce you and our listeners and our wonderful guest, Liz Skelton. Welcome, Liz, and thank you so much for taking the time to be with us for being so patient as we tackle some technical issues. Yes. Uh good. I know why we wanted to invite you on the show, but before I explain this, I would love to hear your story. What is the Liz Skelton story?
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, see, I'm at a slight disadvantage because I don't have a glass of wine here, but I've got a cup of tea. So um, yeah, depending on what I've been drinking, that version of the story would be slightly different.
SPEAKER_03Uh there, yes.
SPEAKER_00I suppose in relation to what you talk about and what you like to explore on this, so I am from Scotland originally. Um, I was actually, though, born over the border in Yorkshire. So I hold kind of dual cultural part in the UK from Yorkshire, which people see is quite distinct from England, and Scotland, where I grew up, and found myself in Australia in my twenties. I came here and travelled around, spent quite a lot of time in central Australia with First Nations communities, and didn't think I would necessarily be back, did quite a bit of traveling, but then found myself back here 25 years ago, which was just for a few years, and then I blinked and um I'm still here, which and here is in Northern Rivers in Bungulan Country, up in Northern Rivers, New South Wales in beautiful Mull and Bimby, via Sydney and via Newtown, very close to Annadale Sellers. So as you were talking about it, I know that bottle shop well. I used to be a frequenter. Fantastic, what a great callback, thank you. So um, yes, you made me feel at home there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that's kind of a bit about, I guess, where I'm from and my journey into uh leadership, which is what I spend a lot of time thinking about and working in and focusing on, really came through working in not-for-profits and small grassroots organizations in Scotland, you know, working with a whole range of people, people with gypsies and travelers, um, young people who were drug users, and really working at that coal face around how do we try and make progress and make change. And when I came to Australia, I worked with an organization called Streetwise, who was based in Redfern at the time, and they produced comics on different social health and legal issues. But the one of the key threads was they had young people at the heart of that. So young people who'd been involved in these issues were involved in, if you like, telling the story of it rather than adults doing it. And I think that thread has been very strong all the way through my story. It's about whoever you work with, the people who you're working with or on behalf of need to be at the central. And while I was working there, I did a leadership program called Sydney Leadership. This was back in 2002, and that was kind of one of those ork in the road sliding doors moments when I then started to look at leadership, if you like, as a way to think about how to address some of the root causes of some of the social issues that I've been working at at the coal fix.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_00And that's really fast forward now, 25 years on, that's still very much the territory I'm in now, and supporting others to develop leadership which can help us thrive, be sustainable, um, navigate the complexity we're in, but also bring about addressing inequality and addressing many of the challenges we face. So that's probably my kind of very short version of what I spend my time on, but I'll also spend my time playing and being involved in music as well. So that's an important other part to talk about of the Liz Skelton story. Yes. Yes. What do you play an instrument? I play the guitar, yes. I'm a newbie. Are you? Are you a vocalist? I am, yes. I've always sang, kind of went from the shower to various other places. But yeah, I think growing up in Scotland, you just sang after a few wines. But it's just when you got together with people, you know, everyone had their party piece, and um mine was singing.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Or are we gonna get a little bit of that?
SPEAKER_00Oh, but you could go, KG. You could kick us off with that, and we could you you you two are on the wine, so let's see how we go. But uh maybe that's probably another episode.
SPEAKER_02Another episode, some other some other episode.
SPEAKER_01And you have to hold your ears like a little, but let's wait.
SPEAKER_02Just to explain also to you, KG, and to our listeners, I came to know of Liz through two channels. One is my lovely friend and business partner, Naomi, Naomi Nash, from New River Leadership, uh you know quite well, I believe. Yeah, I do, yes. And so yeah, so some time ago, Naomi said, Oh, I think you know, you should think about meeting Liz and she'd be great for the podcast. I said, Yeah, excellent, sure. And then though, just maybe by coincidence, I'm not quite sure. I picked up a book when I was doing some work with uh Theory Weary some time ago, and I picked up a book called Lost Conversations.
SPEAKER_01Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_02And it was it's a not a huge book, it's a really accessible book and talks about how we can uh I guess reconnect with the conversations that we aren't having or we haven't had and what that might take. And I found it quite uh engaging, quite moving, quite resonant. And I thought, oh, at the back of it, it says, This is the email if you want to talk to one of the authors or somebody.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I sent off an email, I said, Look, I'd love to talk to somebody, maybe even have them on the show. Uh I never heard back. But then I got back to my notes where Naomi had said, Go and talk to Liz. So I reached out to Liz, and then as I was doing that, I had the book for some reason uh on my shelf, and I looked through it and I I saw Liz's name on so she was one of the co-authors of conversations. I thought so, I thought, oh, this is this has to be it. Yes. Um, which also, Liz, gives me a sense of the breadth of your interests in maybe both your professional life and I think maybe your academic life. You seem to have traversed quite extensive landscapes. Would that be right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I've have been I've played in, worked in, lived in many different places. I think partly I on one level get a bit bored easily. So I do find myself kind of looking that, but also I think I think I always thought systemically. So I've often seen the interconnection. So whilst on paper, you might look at what I've done and where I've been and go, this looks like a bit of a disparate map or a dog's breakfast.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But there's a connection, I would say, between it all, and it's all in relationship. So yeah, but it means I've crossed different sectors, I've lived in different countries, I've played many different roles. But I think there's been some common threads underneath all of those.
SPEAKER_02And what do you see as those common threads? If as you, I guess, reflect on the journey you've taken and the paths you've chosen, what have you seen as the common threads for you at that time?
SPEAKER_00As soon as I said that, I thought you're gonna ask me what they are.
SPEAKER_02So I'm that predictable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I think the first one I mentioned, which was from the work I did in my 20s in Edinburgh, you know, working with young people. It was in the rave scene in the early 90s, and there was nothing about, you know, there's a lot of recreational drug use, and there was really nothing, people didn't really know how to navigate that. So what we did was had young people at the heart of telling their stories and creating their own information for them and their peers so that they could be better informed and reduce harms. So that thread, if you like, about having ensuring that you know, if there's something you're working on, then you speak to the people who are involved or you have them involved at the heart. Of it has been a bit of a no-brainer for me. And that thread has continued in whatever context I've been in. So now, you know, I'm working in systems change and in different places where making sure the communities are the ones there because you know, this thread being that people have really got the answers to their own challenges, but we often look outside or we go to other places for it. So I think that's been a thread. I'd say another one has been about kind of delving underneath and getting underneath things. And I would credit early 20s. I did communication studies as a degree and had no idea what I wanted to do with it beyond not do something which was about making corporates richer or, you know, selling hairspray, something along. I wasn't really interested in that. I was interested in how you could use that to make things better. And the other side to that was it was a bit of a new degree I did. They were kind of making it up as they went, but I would say that the most valuable thing I got was a way to reflect, analyze, look underneath things, have multiple interpretations of what was going on, not just the first thing that you see. And that has been a common threat through developing leadership and running organizations, is to help people broaden how they might be thinking about something and looking at it, including myself, first and foremost. And I think the other piece is around, you know, an intrinsic belief in what can happen when people come together who bring different ways of seeing. Again, if I think about what was formative in that, my, you know, my mum and dad growing up in Scotland in the 70s, my dad was Catholic and my mum was Protestant. And at that time, you know, that was that was risky. They were seeing, I was told I was from a mixed marriage. I can remember going home going, What's a mixed marriage?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But the way that we like to label people and separate them just didn't make sense because that wasn't my experience. And then, you know, when I when I went and studied, I came across Edward Saeed's work about orientalism and how we other people.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00So that's been a very strong influence for me in challenging that and being able to catch when I do it and when I notice it's happening. That in those moments when we other, we stop being in relationship. And yeah, there's so much in that, I think, that leads to what we are now seeing in the world where we forget the relationality we have, and we all suffer from that. So I think that thread has been a key part for me about bridging perceived differences. Because often they're perceived, and finding how do we bring different ways of thinking. Because for me, that's when the magic happens, you know. My experience has been bringing people with from different places, different attitudes, a wee bit like music. You know, you bring different instruments together and you produce something you couldn't do by yourself. So that has been a really strong theme that, you know, I'm very passionate about and know it's really hard to do as well.
SPEAKER_02Speaking of something hard to do, there is something that you said earlier that I just want to dig into a little bit because I wonder whether it's at the foundation of some of the work that you're talking about. You talked about holding different perceptions or different definitions or different views of the world or whatever's happening simultaneously at the one time, which strikes me as quite a skill, because uh the potential perceptions or views of a particular thing may not only be multiple, they could be infinite. How does one acquire that skill? Or how would you go about supporting someone in acquiring that skill of holding multiple and potentially contradictory perceptions of that thing that they are talking about or experiencing or living out?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a good question. And I'll I'll try and avoid jumping to different theories or or frames there are. I mean, I think about it a bit like a kaleidoscope. You know, when you were kids, you've got those kaleidoscopes that you you look at something and you get all the different colours and fractals, and then you turn it. Yeah, and it changes, and then you're you're looking at the same thing, but it looks really different once you just turn the dial a wee bit. Or the other way is we're putting on different glasses. I've got multifocal, so I can see short, but I can see further ahead as well. And in a way, it's a bit like that to see that when we only look at things through one lens, and often it's the personal one, which is this is what I think, I feel, I believe. Yeah, then we're fairly limited in that because we've all got blind spots around that. That's been shaped by my prior experience. And then, you know, my brain is gonna basically predict that it's gonna see everything through that lens. And I think for me, understanding that was a real breakthrough. You know, there's so much neuroscience around this now, but the value then of being able to then have other pairs of glasses that you can look at things through to tune into other wisdom and other knowledge, and you know, just develop that as a practice. And, you know, I draw on things like adaptive leadership to me was was the thing I came across in when I did this leadership program in 2002 that really was like a light bulb going off for me because it it gave me a framework. I hadn't done anything around leadership before. I never thought of what I was doing as being leadership either. And in fact, I was really cynical about it. And I was like, who are these people going off on this leadership program? And who do they think they are? You know, the Scottish chip on your shoulder. So I really resisted it for a while. And then through just the way that that was framed about how adaptation and change happens just completely gave me language for things that I had felt, perceived, navigated, you know, sometimes making a lot of mistakes, often making a lot of mistakes, but it gave language and helped me understand why those things had happened, but also helped me understand why and when I'd been able to make progress. And for me, that was very much around it's called kind of small people politically, about having to work with people who um potentially perceived as the enemy. So if I use my experience, you know, in Scotland working in this drug education place, because we're working in clubs, etc., I was on a committee, the only woman I was in my late 20s, a lot of older men on there who, you know, didn't I felt didn't take what I was saying very seriously. But what I wasn't aware of was the power that I had at that age, and also the perspective that I was representing people who had lived experience. But we got major breakthroughs, felt like it was really stuck for a while. And we got major breakthroughs when, you know, I then had a chat with one of the guys who was the head of the drug squad in the corridor on the way as we were walking out. And we were like, what are you seeing? What are you seeing? And when I spoke to the young people when I went back, they're going, You can't talk to them, you can't talk to the police, you can't involve them. And I'm like, well, let's just see what's possible.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We ended up in an amazing collaboration because we could cross those, we had a common goal, which was we wanted to keep young people safe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we were able to then, if you like, peg and just hold some of those preconceptions. But we acknowledged we had different roles and we had to play different roles there. But we were able to do some incredibly innovative work together under the radar, which enabled us to get education and information to young people, which kept them safe. And we could move much faster than the police could.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We had networks of young people who could educate each other, but we didn't have access to the scientific information we needed. And so I think that was an example of where I not just had to overcome my own pre-judgments, I had to engage with the young people in the organization for them to lean in to that as well. And, you know, it's just that willingness to take that step and then be in relationship and be proved wrong.
SPEAKER_02Well, it sounds like the early days of systems work, whether or not you defined it that way, you know, your ability to cross thresholds or demarcations where you think, well, the demarcation is arbitrary. What if I just talk to this drug squad policeman?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What if?
SPEAKER_01What if who I should talk to, right? Well, at that time, clearly it what it was frowned upon. That's right, that's right. But some instinct in you says that, yeah, we should have this conversation. Move across those boundaries. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Move across. And is that how you I mean, were you aware that what you were doing at that point around crossing those boundaries? Were you aware of the work that you were beginning to form for yourself?
SPEAKER_00No. I think you know, I'm pretty pragmatic. I actually think that's also another thread is, you know, sometimes it's like, how can we just get something done? Like, how can we move this thing that we'd come together for weeks and weeks and sit around a table and it felt like nobody was listening to each other. But people were. And it was just, you know, there was heat. There'd been an incident where, you know, some kid ended up in hospital, and we needed that heat to get attention on it. But it forced me out of my comfort zone a bit, I think. But no, I don't think I was aware of it. I think it was just that desire to go, let's try something other. And also, and seeing that we had some common, we had a common agenda, yeah, and that we had different roles to play, that it wasn't personal. I didn't need to judge this person. It was like we're all trying to do the same thing, but we've got different uniforms, if you like, or different hats on. But the pressure was enormous because I got a lot of pushback from the young people I worked with about betraying their cause, et cetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_02Sounds like you did. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And look, I look back at that time. It's it's interesting we've started there because it's not something I think about very often. But yeah, I was in my late 20s. I'd never been in a leadership role, I've never managed anything, but I was willing to jump in. I think that's that's been a blessing and a curse. I would kind of jump over the edge without a net often. And, you know, I got a lot of this stuff played out publicly because it was hot topics, and what we were doing was a bit radical, involving young people who were clubbers and whatever in the solutions. So a lot of it would be in the media. And, you know, I spent a lot of time in the fetal position after some of these conversations because I had no experience in how to navigate that and blew myself up several times. But I learned lots of lessons in those, it was only three years, but it felt like 30, I think. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was. And I see I see many of those dynamics playing out today, and you know, with many of the people in leadership roles, either formally or informally, who I support, who I coach, who I run programs with. But I think there's something about you've got to be in it and you've got to go through it to really understand the the push and pull and the things you're trying to navigate. Yeah, you learn a lot about yourself at those times as well.
SPEAKER_02So there's Liz Skelton then in her twenties. Yes. And with what I see as really foundational stones here, you've got this notion of the systemic thinking, even though for you it was basically an expression of pragmatism. You had the possibility of kind of working with people who had very different ideas or very different points of view about the lives they were leading and their value. You had uh you were sharing different points of view with people that were trying to make make sure that young people didn't experience harm, and then you move a little bit in later into the idea or the understanding of adaptive leadership. I'm assuming that's Heifetz and Linsky work. But how have those ingredients in your life, in your professional life, how have they developed and integrated over time? Have you been able to expand this work, this idea? Because I'm interested in where, having started from that, where it's taken you, those ideas, because they were very early ideas. There might be a bit more mainstream now, perhaps, but at that time they certainly didn't didn't seem to be huge. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I I I think you're right, they weren't. And I would say in many places they're still not. I mean, we don't need to look too far, and we, you know, was we still have very a real pull to the heroic idea of leadership and experts and people in positions of authority solving problems. And it's so deeply ingrained. And yeah, I look, I guess I I was really fortunate that, you know, I did this program, Sydney Leadership, and then it just it woke something up, I think, or it it gave me a language and understanding. But I soon after that, I left the organization Streetwise, I was with, and then was offered a job with the program, with Sydney Leadership Program, and had to go through all the stuff about imposter syndrome that how can I work with other people who were leaders, that you were incredibly intimidating across corporate government, not for profit. And I again I was 32, 33 at the time. But at the time we had a CEO, uh, it was with the Benevolent Society at the time that the organization sat. So it was a bit of a, we were a wee bit of an anomaly. You know, we were a kind of leadership program within a um New South Wales oldest charity who did traditional service delivery. But you know, the common thread there was about trying to create a more equitable, inclusive, and just world, which resonated strongly. And we were given a great incubator, if we would like, to explore okay, what was the leadership we were developing, and what did we need to do as people? Now I would say leadership development practitioners to support other people to do it. And so for eight years, we were able to invest in both our own development as well as the development of the different groups we worked with. And so we were able to, you know, when came across adaptive leadership in case in point, I was like, this feels really familiar. In Scotland, I'd been introduced to process work, which, you know, is also considered to be a wee bit out there, which is again very systemic. It's about seeing ways of sensing the system and feeling into that, but bringing in everything, human, non-human, etc. And so I went to this thing called world work, which is where basically everyone comes from all over the world, and you work on the systemic issues of the day, from gender, race, whatever it is. The one I went to was in London, and so a lot of it was working with the dynamics there, but how they were playing out, say in Australia or in other contexts. And it scared the life out of me. It was so experiential in the midst of it. But again, there was, I'm a bit of a moth to the flame with that. There was something really edgy, but powerful, incredibly powerful, because it was a visceral, you know, it wasn't just an intellectual exercise. It was like using all the wisdom we had, the kind of what was happening in our bodies and our emotions. So I looked at how could we bring that into the work that we were doing in Sydney leadership at the time, and that took me and got me in contact with people who did like deep democracy in South Africa, which had been used post apartheid, you know, the work of Myrna Lewis and others. Again, processes to bring people together who've got different views and make decisions. And just lots of people like that who we were able to bring in. Julie Diamond, who does amazing innovative work on power intelligence, which was all things that I'd been sensing were there, but going, how do we bring attention and awareness to what is at play coming together to try and address something and not just exclude parts of it because they don't fit within the intellectual framework we're using, but to actually acknowledge those feelings there, there's other things going on which all have validity. To me, these were all tools and different methods and ways to bring attention to what was going on under the surface and above the surface.
SPEAKER_02And you've mentioned the Benevolent Society and the work that you were doing there. Have you had opportunities, I'm assuming you have, to explore and experiment with these ideas and these practices, these wisdoms in other contexts? And what have you noticed and how amenable are certain contexts in contrast to other contexts to this type of work?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So what happened from there was we developed within Benevolent Society, we developed the program out to become this thing called Social Leadership Australia, where we took it out from a program and we worked with people in the corporate sector, we worked with people in government, a whole range. Did a lot of work with First Nations leaders, which is where the book Last Conversations came about. We convened emerging leaders and were in a three-year process with them as non-Indigenous facilitators, working with a group of First Nations leaders and all the dynamics that played out, we wrote about in that book because we saw them happening in other contexts we were in. So, yes, we worked with this in multiple contexts. And I think what I started to see was lots of people individually going through these processes would come out talking about transformation, about doing things differently, about seeing the world differently. And, you know, that was a very fulfilling thing to be involved in and really seeing the impact they could make. But what I also observed was when they went back into systems and tried to do this as a single change agent or leader, they came up against the resistance of this system, obviously, and struggled to apply a lot of it. And I got a wee bit disillusioned and thought, are we just setting people up to fail, that they come out of programs, but the conditions often are not in place for them to apply their learning. And so that took me on another phase, which was where I ended up setting up an entity called Collaboration for Impact with Kerry Graham, my co-founder at the time. And that, you know, we saw a need for this thing where people could learn how do you apply and work with, say, an intact system who's working on a social issue or in a place, a regional place or a suburb who want to address issues locally. And you bring people from different sectors together. So people were seeking a place to learn into how do we do this and how do you support them? So we we went shopping, we went to lots of people going, this is a need. Will you do it? We'll support you, but we didn't want to set up another organization. Fast forward, that was 14 years ago, that became collaboration for impact. So I was with them for 10 years, and that was working in and just experimenting with what does it take to really shift not just people in those systems, but shift the issues. So working on things like unemployment or outcomes for children or whatever those issues were to go, what's the type of way of working or leadership we need that can really change indicators? And you know, this is long-term work. We were with communities for over seven, eight years, walking alongside them, trying, you know, lots of different things, building capacities and conditions for different ways of working to emerge. So, yes, I think what I found was the original frame of adaptive leadership and others got you so far. And then it's like, okay, what else is needed? And learning very much with the communities that I was working with. And so that became a national not-for-profit. And I, you know, started to see similar things, which was okay, some things are sticking, some things people are able to do, and really seeing where there was some system shifts, but you know, systems also snap back.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00And then I, you know, the conditions changing that we've started seeing the last five years, particularly, but the last decade, into what is now being called increasingly poly crisis, where we're not just navigating, say, working on an unemployment or homelessness. It's interconnected with so many other things. Living in the northern rivers, homelessness. Homelessness took on a whole new meaning when we had floods in 2022, you know, suddenly became an emergency. So that led me to the questions I'm now looking at, which are okay, what's needed in where we are now, which is multiple overlapping challenges, a lot of overwhelm that people are like going, you know, this is just too chaotic, too unpredictable. How can we keep doing what we've always done? So that also combined with a bit of frustration that for 10 years, well, 20 years, I was doing the work and I didn't document, we didn't capture anything because we were doing it. So a lot of the progress we saw didn't get captured and was able to be shared with others. So I really wanted to bridge that gap. And I think also a frustration that many of the things that we do do in leadership development, myself included, I would see people couldn't apply because the conditions weren't there. And I'm going, can we not just keep doing what we've always done? We need we need to adapt, we need to shift what we're doing. So that's led me to my kind of new phase, which is I'm both still doing the work. I'm supporting a number of systemic initiatives who are working on big complex challenges. But I'm also doing a PhD to try and really articulate what are the conditions that need to be in place for systemic leadership ways of working to emerge, then particularly now we're in polycrisis, because it's kind of only going to get more complex, it looks like. I don't think things are gonna die down too.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm gonna simplify for sure.
SPEAKER_00No. So, you know, if I can leave something which helps people learn from many of the things I didn't get right, or, you know, or what we're now seeing. And I'm drawing on many people's wisdoms to say, look, these are things which could be helpful as uh foundations, as anchors, things that we can help us navigate through what is then a very emergent dynamic process, because there isn't a roadmap.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We may have is you know, muscles we can develop that help us navigate this type of complexity. So that's what I'm intending to do.
SPEAKER_01Just out of curiosity, you you've mentioned a lot of great things. And one of the things that you mentioned is a challenge is that you know, when people go back into their real day-to-day living or world, it it's harder. What have you found is the most effective way for them to kind of break through that? Have you have you found anything that seems to be working as you've learned from you know a previous experience and and what you're studying now? Is there anything that seems to kind of hit the mark a little better?
SPEAKER_00The most consistent thing is being learning that isn't detached or removed from the work people are doing. So, you know, standalone leadership programs can have their place. But I think particularly for these types of challenges, people being able to learn and apply as they do. So kind of an action learning approach where they're being supported to learn around it. So, you know, if using kind of the highfoot stuff, the balcony dance floor metaphor, that you're stepping out to try and make sense of what's going on and having collective wisdom around, okay, what could be useful here and bringing in movie practices that then people are applying in real time. I think without that environment where that is created and held, it's really hard to have permission to test and try because people say, Yeah, yeah, we want this type of transformation, then you do we'll go, oh, but not quite like that. We don't want to be disruptive so fast. Yeah. So, you know, there's there's so many layers to this, obviously. But I think having people in positions of authority who are not just authorizing, but also being involved in requires that acknowledgement about they are in relation with these systems and that they don't have all the answers and we've got to try something else. But that willingness to go on that process.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00To go, let's test and try as we go, let's create an environment or a holding environment, a container to do this so that we can still keep doing business as usual in some parts, but we're not going to shift anything unless we've got a space where we can test and try as we go. But I think the important thing is applying the learnings quickly while they're once that people can go. Well, how do I take that from the theoretical?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, make it real, make it practical, make it immediate. It's not about implementation, it's really about grafting into existing ways of working and being able to change that from the inside, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, happened the dialogue that says you're having uh these challenges today. This is real. So how would we work through those things? What are the some of the options you have? And and it's it's actually something that they can work in their mind and it makes sense instead of trying to be all theoretical. Yeah, it gives them something that they can grab on to, right?
SPEAKER_02Interestedly, is in the work that you're currently doing through your PhD, there's a few things that I just want to try and bring together. So there's this notion of polycrisis that you've highlighted. Yes. There's the idea that how do we create conditions or the question? How do we create conditions that will allow people to navigate this landscape? Yeah. Big landscape. Yeah. What are some of your working hypotheses? What are you going to try and test out? What are you looking forward? What are you exploring at the moment? We get an early view of this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Maybe a wee bit embryonic or too early to say. Um that's a big question, Paul. And I don't have a glass of wine with me at the moment.
SPEAKER_02But we'll come back in a couple of years and and just see how you went with that working hypothesis. But now at least I'll talk about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's degrees of it. To me, there's okay, I'll give it a track. There's the systemic way of being, I would say. I'm trying to find language for this at the moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, good.
SPEAKER_00But whatever, however, you work with any of the systems, thinking tools or theories or whatever, that you can approach that in a way which will keep reinforcing the mechanistic, linear, kind of predictive approaches which have got us into many of these challenges in the first place. That we see, you know, we'll pick up a frame and we'll apply it in a very technical way, as if it's a recipe, and then wonder why things aren't shifting. And I see it time and time again that when collective impact came out that we used in CFI, people applied it, going, oh, if you just do X, Y, and Z. It's something about the spirit and the, and you know, even that language, this language isn't right, because you use that language and it takes people off in different places. But it's something about a way of thinking, being, seeing the world that allows you to then see that we're in relationship all the time with the systems that we're engaging with and that we're interacting with. And so to constantly be testing our assumptions. There's there's a whole peak load of things within that, things like attending to the nervous system of ourselves and of the systems we're working in, that we know a lot more about that now. That we need to be a bit more, you know, there's what language around trauma-informed, but that we're not just shifting systems, we're actually trying to address some of the harms or the we're trying to look at how do we not keep perpetuating some of the marginalization that happens as we keep moving ahead. You know, it's drawing on things like care, compassion, but it's also a way of working where we've got reflexivity that we're able to constantly reflect on what we're doing and look at it through multiple lenses like the kaleidoscope and test what we're doing. So to me, they're in a big bag. There's a whole heap of other stuff in there that I would see belong to what we're like, a systemic way of being that is a muscle that people can learn. So, practitioners, wherever you are, academics in whatever sphere in business and government, I think if we just built that capability as early as possible with people, that it shifts how we see the world from seeing it as a problem that needs to be solved or cracked to going, we are in relationship, we are never neutral, we're not detached. What we do influences and shapes everything around us. So, how do we work with that agency? Even when we feel our most powerless, we are influencing it. You know, just being in the room, your presence is influencing. So, so much of the work I do is having different ways of helping people really connect with and see the agency they have to act. So when we complain about the world we're in, to see ourselves as part of it and culpable and responsible for that and for each other. So to me, it's kind of coming back some very core things about I think we've lost sight of. And many people, a lot of the framing around polychrisis is that we it's a crisis of us seeing ourselves in relationship to different elements of the world. Um, that's why we're in polychrisis. There's a breakdown in that. And we don't want things to continue like that. We actually want to rebuild that relationality and connectivity. And the work I do through things like Lost Conversations, Deep Collaboration, working with First Nations and non-Indigenous Australians and other Australians, that that's an intrinsic way of being and living for many First Nations cultures. So, and in other cultures in the global south, it's just we've kind of there's a kind of colonialist way of thinking of acquiring and producing and that out seeing outcomes in ways which only look at outcomes of one part of the system and not the whole.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's a long-winded way of saying that's by working hypotheses, but it was perfect.
SPEAKER_02It drew to me another question though. You're not gonna get away that easy. I was just gonna ask, Liz, that you talk about the fact that we've we've either lost or maybe we never had it, our ability to be in the world systemically. Would it be accurate in saying or defining your work as restorative in some way, shape, or form?
SPEAKER_00Um, it could be. I think there's a lot in the regenerative, there's a lot emerging about, you know, regenerative leadership. I think that we can't think about leadership purely as a a kind of, if you like, output product in a productive cultural way. That leadership by its definition, and for me it always has been, is about how do we make things better, how do we create a world that's better than we found it, you know, and that's now increasingly called stewardship, it's been called many other things, that leadership isn't just about getting the about optimization. I think it it is that idea about ensuring that systems are thriving. And so if that is about restoration, I don't know that we've not been in these times before. These are new, we're navigating them. So I don't know what's been called for. What I'm exploring, if you like, is what from our current wisdoms and ways of doing things are we not actually, have we not been looking at that are there and that are working in well in different places. So if you like, it's shining a bit of practices or knowledges which are already there, they're latent, and maybe the conditions haven't been in the place which have allowed them to emerge. My lens is to what's needed for I've got nieces and nephews. I'd love them to be able to have access to ways of doing things and learning and being that help them navigate this world because it's going to be them that are going to have to deal with it, not me. I'll have shuffled off by then. So, you know, if they have access early on to some of these ways of working and practice that can help them make sense of it, then for me, that will be wonderful. I mean, but they'll still have to navigate their own path. So I think, as always, you know, drawing on adaptive leadership, there will be some things that we're doing now which we need to develop and nurture and conserve that we don't want to lose, that we've got to really hold on to and will get us into the next horizon. But there'll be other things that will end and we'll have to stop doing, and that depending where you sit in relation to what's happening in the world at the moment, there's a stark reality that the way of life we've enjoyed, many of us have enjoyed, not everybody, are not sustainable and won't continue. So, how do you help people lean into that to go? This could be an opportunity. There will be loss involved, though. And there's pain, there's grief in that. We've got to let go of some things. But it could be an opportunity to address some of the harms that have happened and make sure that we are taking more people, more people are included in this, in whatever other versions we're creating, rather than just people who we think and look the same as we do.
SPEAKER_02On that note, there's if people, leaders out there, people in positions of authority or influence, if they wanted to delve deeper in what you're saying, in understanding what it might mean to live more systemically or adaptively, if they were the ones to create certain conditions, how would they contact you?
SPEAKER_00That's a great question. There's many ways to contact me. LinkedIn is the kind of vehicle of choice often, isn't it? I'm situated within the School of Cybernetics at ANU, is where I'm doing my PhD. But I also have my own thing called the adaptive practice, which people can find online and connect with me that way. But, you know, really open to exploring with anyone who's asking similar questions and wondering how do we make sense of this and lean into what we're in. And, you know, it's easy to look away and watch Netflix and I do that myself. And also, you know, there's responsibility, accountability for using the agency we've got, even if it's just one or two things we do differently. How do we do that to lean into what we're in at the moment? And belief that we've, you know, to go full circle to where I started is to believe that we've got the wisdom to address this, that human beings have the capacity, you know. We show that at the worst times often, that we come together and we care. And I think we're gonna need that in space.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Liz. Very good chat, very thought-provoking. Um, my mind is racing at the moment. But I really appreciate your time. Thank you for sharing uh your work, even in its embryonic stage. Really keen to see how that unfolds and develops. So hopefully we'll get you back. Yeah, some soon. Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_00We'd love to, and hopefully in person, sharing some of that nice wine with you. We can come to you, don't you? We're not coming here. We'll come to you. Yeah, or come up here, come smell and bimmy. Yeah. Yeah, we're good at that, right? Any time. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02We'll see you soon. We'll talk to you soon. And until that moment, Slunch. Slunge, all the best. That's it for our show today. If you like what you heard, if you liked our conversation, if you want to hear more, please rate us, review us, subscribe. Tell your friends, your family, your enemies, everyone you know. As always, we'd like to hear your feedback about any particular leadership topic you'd like to hear about or want us to explore. Please let us know by reaching out to us at askus at leadership tocanton.com. That's ASKUS at leadership tocanton.com. You can also leave your comments and suggestions at our website at leadership tocanton.com. We really appreciate your time and comments. Thanks for listening and come back next time.
